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Macintosh for sale frequently asked questions (FAQ) |
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Archive-name: macintosh/wanted-faq
Version: 2.4.0
Last-modified: September 8, 1995
Maintainer: elharo@shock.njit.edu
URL: http://www.macfaq.com/wantedfaq.html
Buying and Selling Macintosh Computers, Software and Peripherals
================================================================
comp.sys.mac.faq, part 5:
comp.sys.mac.wanted & misc.forsale.computers.mac
Copyright 1993,1994 by Elliotte Harold
Please see section 5.8 of the general FAQ if you wish
to redistribute or revise this document in any way.
Archive-name: macintosh/wanted-faq
Version: 2.4.0
Last-modified: September 8, 1995
URL: http://www.macfaq.com/wantedfaq.html
Address comments to elharo@shock.njit.edu
What's new in version 2.4.0:
----------------------------
I've improved the URL formatting.
I've added info about several new models, current and future.
And of course prices have continued to fall over the last few months.
Table of Contents
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I. Buying and Selling Used Equipment
1. Should I buy/sell on Usenet?
2. Where should I buy/sell used equipment?
3. I've decided to completely ignore your excellent advice and
post my ad anyway. What should I do?
4. I've decided to completely ignore your excellent advice and
buy something offered for sale on the net anyway. How can
I avoid being ripped off?
II. Fair Market Value
1. How much is my computer worth?
2. What is used software worth?
3. Going prices?
III. Where Should I Buy a New Mac?
1. Authorized Dealers
2. VAR's
3. Superstores
4. Performas
5. Educational Dealers
6. Direct From Apple
7. Auctions
8. Does anyone know a dealer in New York City?
9. New Equipment Prices
IV. When Should I buy a new Mac?
1. Macrotime
2. Microtime
3. When will I get my Mac?
V. How Should I Buy a New Mac?
1. Know what you want
2. The dealer needs to sell you a mac more than you need to buy one
3. Have a competitor's ad handy
4. Cash on delivery
5. The sales tax game
6. Leasing
7. Be nice to the salesperson.
VI. The Gray Market and Mail Order
1. What is the gray market?
2. Are gray market Macs covered by Apple warranties?
3. Does anyone know a good mail-order company?
RETRIEVING THE ENTIRE FAQ
=========================
This is the FIFTH part of this FAQ. The first part is also
posted to this newsgroup under the subject heading "Introductory
Macintosh frequently asked questions (FAQ)" and includes a complete
table of contents for the entire document as well as information on
where to post, ftp, file decompression, trouble-shooting, preventive
maintenance and conditions for reproduction, posting and use of this
document outside of Usenet. The second, third, fourth, and sixth parts
are posted every two weeks in comp.sys.mac.system, comp.sys.mac.misc,
comp.sys.mac.apps, and comp.sys.mac.hardware respectively. Please
familiarize yourself with all six sections of this document before
posting. All pieces are available for anonymous ftp from
========================================
BUYING AND SELLING USED EQUIPMENT (1.0)
========================================
SHOULD I BUY OR SELL ON USENET? (1.1)
--------------------------------------
No, you should not. Usenet is a medium by which information
is broadcast to millions of different people around the world.
It's almost certain that noone in Singapore wants to buy a Canadian
Classic 4/40, even at a really great price. Import laws, the cost
of international shipping and a host of other concerns pose too
big an obstacle to the sale of small quantities of used equipment.
Even within one country geographical distances often pose a severe
obstacle to the sale of used goods. There is simply too great
a chance of either seller or buyer being ripped off in a
long-distance transaction via non-payment, non-delivery,
or non-usable equipment.
WHERE SHOULD I BUY/SELL USED EQUIPMENT? (1.2)
----------------------------------------------
LOCAL bulletin boards, both of the electronic and paper
varieties, are a far better medium for the sale of used hardware,
software, and other tangible quantities. Some Usenet sites and
local areas have local for sale newsgroups (e.g. nj.forsale
here in New Jersey) which are more appropriate for classified
advertising than netwide groups like comp.sys.mac.wanted. In
large cities and college towns you should reach just as many
potential buyers by advertising locally as by posting to the net.
Advertising locally gives both the seller and the buyer the BIG
advantage of being able to meet to test the system, verify that
what is being offered is in fact what is available, and avoiding
the hassle of shipping. The chance of being ripped off either
through non-payment or non-delivery is GREATLY reduced by
advertising and selling locally.
I WANT TO POST MY AD ANYWAY. WHAT SHOULD I DO? (1.3)
------------------------------------------------------
First see section 2.0 below to try and decide on a reasonable
price. Be prepared for flames if your price is too far out of line
including follow-up posts warning potential buyers that you are
trying to rip them off. You may just want to state "best offer."
That way you aren't responsible if someone else misvalues your
equipment. If an offer does come in that meets your minimum price,
you can sell it. If there are no reasonable offers, you don't have
to sell.
Be sure to include a descriptive subject line in your post.
For Sale, Macintosh For Sale, and Macintosh Software For Sale are
all HORRIBLE subject lines. Better subject lines would be
SE/30 4/40, $395 or best offer
or
Photoshop 3.0, full edition, unopened, $250.
Then include a more detailed description in the body of the post.
Also be sure to state whether or not you'll pay shipping. (It's
much easier to sell an item if you agree to pay shipping.)
You should post your notice in comp.sys.mac.wanted and
misc.forsale.computers.mac ONLY. Posting a for sale ad to
comp.sys.mac.misc is guaranteed flame-bait, even more so if your
offer is over-priced. You should also restrict the distribution of
your message to as local an area as possible. Ask your local news
administrator for help if you don't know how to do this.
Finally if you've sold your item please don't post a message
saying the item has been sold. Most of us don't care. If you are
getting a lot of offers and want to take the item off the market,
it's better to cancel the original message. The bandwidth cost is
the same, but you'll save a lot of people the trouble of reading
two now-pointless messages from you. Again you may need to ask
your local news administrator how to do this.
HOW CAN I AVOID BEING RIPPED OFF WHEN I BUY SOMETHING FROM THE NET? (1.4)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can't, which is the single biggest reason I recommend
against buying and selling on Usenet. The most effective
precaution you can take is to insist on check-on-delivery. That
way you give the seller nothing until something is delivered, and
you can stop payment on the check if what is delivered is not what
was advertised. This may cost a few dollars more, but the added
security is more than worth it. NEVER pay in advance for used
goods from an unknown shipper.
You may also want to insist on a work address and phone number
for the seller. This is especially effective if the forsale post
originates from a company account. The threat of being harassed at
work is more effective than the threat of legal action against some
unscrupulous individuals who realize you probably won't sue but may
complain to their boss. Even when dealing with completely honest
individuals it's still much easier to haggle over terms and work
out shipping arrangements via phone than through protracted
email exchanges.
========================
FAIR MARKET VALUE (2.0)
========================
HOW MUCH IS MY USED HARDWARE WORTH? (2.1)
------------------------------------------
Make your lowest estimate of the resale value of your hardware
taking into account current prices on new hardware of equivalent
capability. Then divide that estimate by two. The price you now
have is somewhere above the fair market value of your hardware.
Almost everyone severely overestimates the value of their
equipment. I've seen friendships and business relationships
destroyed once buyers realized how badly they'd been taken EVEN
THOUGH THE SELLERS DID NOT INTENTIONALLY MISLEAD THE BUYERS.
Computers are like cars in that they lose 30% of their value
as soon as you walk out of the dealer's showroom with one. They
are unlike cars in that they lose more value when new models are
released irregardless of the condition or age of the previous model.
Unlike cars newer models of computer really are better. High-end
systems retain their value longer. My 8/45 SE/30, a high-end system
when I bought it four years ago, is still barely salable today.
Had I purchased a low-end Plus instead it would at most be worth
$100 for parts.
WHAT IS USED SOFTWARE WORTH? (2.2)
-----------------------------------
Almost nothing. It's certainly worth less than the cost of
distributing a for sale message around the world on Usenet. If the
software is the current version AND includes all original master
disks and manuals AND a notarized letter transferring ownership
from the original purchaser to the new owner, then it's worth
about half of the current mail-order or educational discount price,
whichever is lower. Especially note that software left on a hard
disk when a computer is sold adds NOTHING to the value of the
system. The buyer can pirate payware and download shareware
just as easily as the seller.
NO REALLY, HOW MUCH IS MY SYSTEM WORTH? (2.3)
----------------------------------------------
I'll give a few numbers I consider current as of Fall, 1995.
Unlike the completely ridiculous prices you'll find in the AmCo
index these values shouldn't leave the buyer feeling ripped off.
As a seller you can often get higher prices than these, but as a
buyer these represent what you should be able to bargain somebody
down to. Asking prices and configurations vary WILDLY so haggle
and don't be afraid to wait for a better deal if you don't like
what someone is offering.
When trying to determine reasonable prices for discontinued
equipment I consider several factors. First I set a floor for a
given model based on what used equipment dealers like Sun Remarketing
are willing to pay for inventory and by what repair shops will pay
for parts. Then I set a ceiling based on two thirds of typical
prices for a model at used computer dealers. Used computer dealers
can charge more than individuals because they do offer warranties
that provide some protection against buying a lemon. Nonetheless the
Macintosh market moves so fast that dealers of used equipment
sometimes aren't able to unload inventory before the price of
equivalent new models drops below what they paid for inventory. The
existence of many of these dealers is marginal and depends heavily on
customers who assume that new equipment is more expensive than old
and that mail order is cheaper than buying from the local dealer,
neither of which is necessarily true. Thus I also considered the
prices of equivalent and better new machines as well.
The real kicker here is the LC 475 (a.k.a. Quadra 605), a 25 MHz
68LC040 (no FPU), 4 megs RAM, 80 megabyte hard disk, keyboard,
several useful applications and a twelve month warranty for about
$499 new. Very few used Macs currently being offered for sale have
as much horsepower as this machine though some may have additional
features such as a monitor or more slots. However very few people
buying used equipment need more than one expansion slot. Thus as a
buyer or a seller ask yourself what a machine is worth compared to
an LC 475. Within this range I try to set the suggested price
in the ballpark of the lowest asking price I've seen on Usenet or
elsewhere. Finally I adjust the prices a little between models to
make sure that equivalently capable used Macs cost about the same
amount. My ultimate goal is to ensure that a buyer who pays the
price listed here does not feel cheated in a transaction, either
because they see the Mac they just bought for $1000 advertised for
$500 two weeks later or because they realize they could have bought
a better Mac new for the same money. Both of these happen far
too frequently.
These prices are mainly for discontinued models. For models
that are still available new, see the list in question 3.8. Figure
the same system used is worth about 70% of that price plus an
extra half percent for every month of warranty coverage left. For
compact Macs all prices include a keyboard and mouse. Take $100
off the price if there's no keyboard or mouse or both. Otherwise
the prices are just for the base CPU with internal hard drive and
RAM. Most offers to sell do include a monitor, keyboard and mouse
and some room for haggling so asking prices will typically be
somewhat higher. RAM and hard drive configurations can vary
greatly. I've tried to include the high and low ends as well as
the configurations you're most likely to run across. Use your best
judgment when interpolating and extrapolating to other models.
Mac 128 $50
Mac 512 $50
Mac 512ke $50
Mac Plus 1/0 $50
Mac Plus 4/0 $100
SE 1/0 $75
SE 1/20 $100
SE 4/0 $100
SE 4/40 $125
SE/30 1/0 $150
SE/30 4/40 $350
SE/30 5/80 $400
SE/30 8/80 $450
Classic 4/40 $140
Classic 4/80 $165
Classic II 2/40 $265
Classic II 4/80 $370
Color Classic 4/80 $410
LC 4/40 $175
LC 4/80 $225
LC 10/80 $300
LC II 4/40 $175
LC II 4/80 $200
LC II 8/80 $250
LC III 4/80 $300
LC III 4/160 $350
LC 520 4/80 $650
LC 520 5/80/2CD $800
LC 520 8/160/2CD $900
LC 550 4/160 $895
LC 575 5/160/2CD $940
LC 575 8/160/2CD $995
Mac II 0/0 $200
Mac II 0/0/FDHD $225
Mac II 8/40 $300
Mac II 4/105/FDHD $400
Mac IIx 0/0 $300
Mac IIx 8/80 $525
Mac IIci 0/0 $400
Mac IIci 8/80 $600
Mac IIcx 0/0 $250
Mac IIsi 2/0 $325
Mac IIsi 3/40 $420
Mac IIsi 5/80 $475
Mac IIsi 5/120/FPU $500
Mac IIfx 0/0 $700
Mac IIfx 4/270 $900
Mac IIvx 4/80 $400
Mac IIvx 5/80/2CD $550
Mac IIvx 4/230 $450
Mac IIvx 4/230/2CD $600
Centris 610 4/80 $500
Centris 610 8/80 $575
Centris 610 8/230 $675
Centris 610 8/230/2CD $800
Centris 650 8/230 $800
Centris 650 8/230/2CD $950
Mac Portable 1/40 $200
Mac Portable 4/40 $250
Mac Portable 4/80/Backlit $300
Quadra 605 4/80 (LC 475) $400
Quadra 605 4/160 (LC 475) $469
Quadra 605 8/160 $579
Quadra 605 8/250 $599
Quadra 610 8/160 $700
Quadra 610 8/160/DOS $990
Quadra 610 8/230 $800
Quadra 610 8/230/2CD $900
Quadra 650 8/230 $1100
Quadra 650 8/500 $1400
Quadra 650 16/230 $1500
Quadra 650 8/230/2CD $1280
Quadra 650 8/500/2CD $1600
Quadra 660av 8/80 $1050
Quadra 660av 8/230 $1095
Quadra 660av 8/230/2CD $1200
Quadra 660av 8/500 $1320
Quadra 660av 8/500/2CD $1560
Quadra 800 8/230 $1400
Quadra 800 8/500 $1500
Quadra 800 8/500/2CD $1600
Quadra 800 8/1000 $1900
Quadra 840av 8/230 $1660
Quadra 840av 8/230/2CD $1895
Quadra 840av 8/500 $2050
Quadra 840av 16/500 $2200
Quadra 840av 16/500/2CD $2450
Quadra 840av 16/1000/2CD $3900
Quadra 950 8/0 $1960
Quadra 950 8/230 $2100
Quadra 950 8/400 $2250
Quadra 950 8/500 $2500
Quadra 950 16/1000 $2900
Quadra 700 4/0 $600
Quadra 700 4/80 $700
Quadra 700 8/105 $800
Quadra 900 4/0 $1200
Quadra 900 4/160 $1500
PowerMac 6100/60 8/160 $905
PowerMac 6100/60 8/250 $1000
PowerMac 6100/60 8/250/2CD$1205
PowerMac 6100/60 16/250 $1300
PowerBook 100 2/20 $300
PowerBook 100 4/40 $375
PowerBook 140 2/20 $400
PowerBook 140 4/40 $475
PowerBook 140 4/120 $650
PowerBook 145 4/40 $650
PowerBook 145b 4/40 $595
PowerBook 145b 4/80 $695
PowerBook 145b 4/120 $795
PowerBook 160 2/20 $600
PowerBook 160 4/40 $700
PowerBook 165 4/80 $1095
PowerBook 165 4/160 $1195
PowerBook 165 4/160/Modem $1295
PowerBook 165c 4/80 $1295
PowerBook 165c 4/120 $1395
PowerBook 165c 4/120/Modem $1495
PowerBook 170 4/40 $900
PowerBook 170 4/80 $975
PowerBook 170 8/40/modem $995
PowerBook 170 4/120 $965
PowerBook 180 4/80 $1350
PowerBook 180 4/120 $1460
PowerBook 180 4/120/Modem $1570
PowerBook 180c 4/80 $1550
PowerBook 180c 4/160 $1660
PowerBook 180c 4/160/Modem $1770
PowerBook 540 4/240 $2195
PowerBook 540 12/240/Modem $2595
Duo 210 4/80 $605
Duo 230 4/80 $695
Duo 230 4/120 $795
Duo 230 4/120/Modem $895
Duo 250 4/200 $1150
Duo 250 12/200/Modem $1350
Duo 270c 4/240 $1500
Duo 270c 12/240/Modem $1895
ImageWriter $50
ImageWriter II $75
ImageWriter LQ $100
StyleWriter $135
Personal Laserwriter SC $200
Personal Laserwriter LS $235
Personal Laserwriter NT $285
Personal Laserwriter NTR $335
LaserWriter IISC $300
LaserWriter IINT $500
LaserWriter IINTX $600
LaserWriter IIf $735
LaserWriter IIg $995
Apple CDSC $50
Apple CD-150 $75
Apple CD-300 $125
Apple Standard Keyboard $50
Apple Extended Keyboard $85
Apple 12" B/W Monitor $115
Apple 13" HiRes Color $300
Apple Portrait Display $265
====================================
WHERE SHOULD I BUY A NEW MAC? (3.0)
====================================
AUTHORIZED DEALERS (3.1)
-------------------------
Hard as it may be to believe Apple authorized dealers are
normally the most reliable, best stocked, and cheapest source of
Apple brand equipment. You are unlikely to do better by buying at
educational discount, at a superstore, or by mail-order (though
walking in with the price list from a local university or
superstore is often the quickest way to cut through a lot
of haggling).
The larger dealers should offer you a price several percentage
points less than offered by smaller dealers since Apple charges them
less for product. The key number is $5,000,000. A dealer that orders
five million dollars of merchandise from Apple in a year pays about
three percent less for its product than a dealer that only orders
$1,000,000 of Apple products in a year. (This is also a great
incentive for dealers that are on the borderline of one of the two
tiers to cut margins to move more volume.) Dealers that order less
than a million dollars a year normally order product through a master
reseller like MicroAge which tacks on its own markup. Apple sets
minimum advertised pricing and punishes dealers that advertise lower
prices so that smaller dealers can compete, at least for the business
of uninformed consumers (which isn't you since you're reading this
FAQ list.) This helps keep advertised prices pretty much in lockstep,
but you should expect that the larger dealers will offer prices
several percent less than what they advertise when you visit
their store.
VAR'S (3.2)
------------
I include Value Added Resellers (VAR's for short) only for the
sake of completeness. These dealers custom configure Macintoshes
for specific purposes and sell them at a premium price. Generally
they are uninterested in single CPU, retail sales. Very few will
even attempt to match rock bottom prices. However they are about
the only part of the dealer channel that provides significant
after-sale support to their customers.
SUPERSTORES (3.3)
------------------
Superstores like CompUSA are fairly hassle-free since they
won't do any haggling except on the largest orders. They should be
able to match a competitor's advertised price though you may need
to show them an ad with the better price first. On the other hand
any authorized dealer should almost certainly be able to beat a
superstore price. After all, noone puts their best price in an ad
for all their competitors to see. The best use for a superstore is
to tell salespeople at authorized dealers what prices they need to
beat to get your business.
PERFORMAS (3.4)
----------------
At various times Apple repackages different models of LC's,
Classics and Quadra's with slightly different software and sells
them as Performa's through consumer outlets like Sears. With
one exception (the Performa 600) these have all been virtually
identical to one model or another of the Macs sold at authorized
dealers except for the bundled software. Most of the time the
regular model is cheaper than the equivalent Performa, especially
if you don't want the bundled software; but this isn't always true
so you should double-check the price of a Performa compared to the
model you want to buy. Finally most Performa dealers will sell Macs
over the phone to customers they've never met. So if you can't find
what you want locally, a Performa may be a reasonable choice.
EDUCATIONAL DEALERS (3.5)
--------------------------
The nicest thing about campus computer stores is that they're
willing to distribute firm price lists with reasonable prices so
there's no need to haggle. Also since they typically don't work
on commission they're much more honest and open than the average
authorized dealer. The worst thing about campus computer stores is
that they're normally the last part of the channel to get product.
If you order a Mac that isn't in stock through an educational dealer,
plan on waiting at least two months for delivery.
Educational prices haven't fallen at the same rate as have prices
in other channels over the last two years (mainly because educational
prices were much lower to start with) so larger authorized dealers
should now be able to match or beat educational prices. One of the
most effective tactics for dealing with an authorized dealer that
cuts through a lot of hassle and haggling is walking in with a copy
of a local university price list and asking "Can you do better?"
DIRECT FROM APPLE (3.6)
------------------------
Apple does not sell Macs retail except to their largest
accounts. They occasionally sell discounted Macs to certain
developers but like educational discounts, developer's discounts
aren't what they used to be. Most developers agree that the
paperwork and delays involved in buying direct aren't worth any
small savings that might be had by buying from Apple rather than
from a dealer.
AUCTIONS (3.7)
---------------
Apple occasionally dumps overstocked equipment at various
auctions around the country. Most of the time this is NOT a good
way to get a good deal on a new Mac. Once auctioneers fees (5%)
are factored in prices tend to be higher than you'd pay at a dealer
for newer, better models. However some deals are possible if you
know what you want and how much its worth. Here are a few rules
of thumb for shopping at auction:
1. Get a list of the merchandise offered for sale. Be sure to
preview the items before the auction. Auction configurations
are not always the same as dealer configurations. Check whether
the models you're interested in are new or demos and what their
warranty status is. New equipment should have a full
one year warranty.
2. Make a list of street prices and prices you're willing to pay
for everything you might bid on. The sections on new and used
equipment prices in this FAQ can be of great help here.
3. Don't get caught up in the excitement of the auction. NEVER
bid more than you planned on for any piece.
4. Powerbooks almost always sell for more than their street
price. Don't even bother attending an auction if you only
want a PowerBook.
DOES ANYONE KNOW A DEALER IN NEW YORK CITY? (3.8)
--------------------------------------------------
If you're planning a trip to New York, you may want to do a
little Mac shopping on the side. New York City is one of the most
competitive Mac markets in the United States, and the prices here
reflect it. For the current ads of most NYC dealers pick up a copy
of Tuesday's New York Times. Below I list several dealers you may
want to check out.
PCSI
26 West 23rd Street between Fifth and Sixth Avenues
(212) 255-7600
I've dealt with PCSI several times over the last few years
and they've always been friendly, honest, and had competitive
prices.
MPC
4 West 20th Street between Fifth and Sixth Avenues
(212) 463-8585
I worked at MPC for about a year a few years back. Since
MPC is also a full-service service bureau as well as being an
authorized dealer, they're by far the most technically
knowledgable dealership in NYC. The prices aren't bad either.
J&R Computer World
15 Park Row
NY NY 10038
(212) 238-9000
(800) 221-8180
This is New York City's superstore. Like most superstores
there's limited haggling, not particularly knowledgable
salespeople, and decent prices; but you can often do better by
going to one of the other dealers and saying "J&R has it for
$2000. Can you beat that?" J&R is also authorized to sell
Macs over the phone.
Sam Ash
160 West 48th Street
NY NY
(212) 719-2299
While most New York City dealers cater to the graphics design
market and the occasional business user, Sam Ash has developed
a large and loyal following among musicians. If you need advice
on MIDI to Mac hookups and the like, you won't do better than
Sam Ash. Be warned, however, that the salsepeople work on
straight commission so they can be somewhat aggressive and hard
bargainers. There are also locations in Queens, New Jersey,
and other parts of the metro area.
NEW EQUIPMENT PRICES (3.9)
---------------------------
What follows are mostly maximum prices you should expect to
pay for current Apple models in standard configurations. You should
have no trouble getting these prices at any Apple reseller in the
United States with a little haggling. In competitive markets or
if you're buying several Macs at once, you may be able to get up to
10% or more off these prices. If you do manage to significantly beat
these prices on a single Mac purchase I'd like to hear about it so I
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