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Archive-Name: travel/europe/faq Posting-Frequency: Monthly Last-Modified: 2003-12-07 URL: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/travel/europe/faq Rec.travel.europe FAQ ===================== This FAQ was written by Yves Bellefeuille, with help from Martin Rich . Thanks also to "Darren", who prepared an earlier version of the rec.travel.europe FAQ. Please send any comments to me at . None of the "URLs" or "links" mentioned in this FAQ should require Java or JavaScript. If they do, please let me know. You might also want to write to the address "webmaster" at the domain involved to ask them to provide web pages that don't require Java or JavaScript; for example, to complain about a web page at aol.com, write to . Table of Contents ================= I. General Usenet Guidelines II. Other FAQs III. Frequently Asked Questions About the newsgroup itself 1. What countries does the newsgroup cover? 2. Where should I post about rooms or services wanted or offered? 3. What other newsgroups deal with travelling or with Europe? 4. What is "Google"? 5. How can I complain about "spam"? Travel planning and preparations 6. I'm going to Europe for the first time. Where should I go? 7. Should I go on my own or with a tour? 8. What guidebooks are available? 9. Do I need a visa to visit ? 10. What's the European Union (EU)? 11. What's a "Schengen visa"? 12. What should I pack? 13. What should I see during my trip? 14. What should I bring my European friends as gifts? Money and financial matters 15. What currency should I use? 16. What's the "Interbank" exchange rate? 17. Will my bank machine card or credit card work in Europe? 18. Should I use traveller's cheques? 19. Should I change money before I go or when I get there? 20. How do I change money at a bank or _bureau de change_? 21. What does "VAT" mean? 22. Can I get a VAT refund? 23. Can I buy "duty-free"? Transportation 24. Where can I get the best airfare? 25. Is my driver's licence valid in Europe? 26. Can I drive as fast as I want in Germany? 27. How can I get from Charles de Gaulle (CDG) airport to Paris? 28. Where can I get information on trains? 29. Should I buy a rail pass? 30. Where should I buy train tickets? Miscellaneous 31. I speak language and I'm going to country . How widely is my language spoken in this country? 32. What do NTSC, PAL and SECAM mean? 33. Can I drink the tap water in Europe? 34. Should I be worried about crime in Europe? 35. What's the time difference? 36. What's the weather like over there? 37. How can I phone to Europe? IV. Selected Links V. To Do: Possible Additions I. General Usenet Guidelines ============================ For general information on Usenet, see the "news.newusers.questions Official Home Page" at http://web.presby.edu/~nnqadmin/nnq/ For information on standard Usenet etiquette, see the "NNQ" home page mentioned above and Usenet group news.announce.newusers. If you're new to Usenet, *please* read at least the following guidelines: * Welcome to Usenet! http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/welcome/part1/ * Rules for posting to Usenet http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/posting-rules/part1/ * Hints on writing style for Usenet http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/writing-style/part1/ * A Primer on How to Work With the Usenet Community http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/primer/part1/ * Emily Postnews Answers Your Questions on Netiquette http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/emily-postnews/part1/ * Advertising on Usenet: How To Do It, How Not To Do It http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/advertising/how-to/part1/ II. Other FAQs ============== Readers of rec.travel.europe might also want to consult the following specialized FAQs: * Paris Transport FAQ, by Delphine Kensit http://www.faqs.org/faqs/travel/europe/Paris-Transport/ * Euro Currency Changeover FAQ, by Arwel Parry http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/eurofaq.htm * Travel in the UK, by Martin Rich http://www.jackdaw.u-net.com/ukfaq/ The following FAQs from Usenet group rec.travel.air may also be helpful: * Air Traveler's Handbook, by Mark Kantrowitz http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/mkant/Public/Travel/airfare.html * Airline information on-line on the Internet FAQ, by John R. Levine http://www.faqs.org/faqs/travel/air/online-info/ * Airline Ticket Consolidators and Bucket Shops FAQ, by Edward Hasbrouck http://hasbrouck.org/faq/ III. Frequently Asked Questions =============================== About the newsgroup itself ========================== 1. What countries does the newsgroup cover? According to its charter, rec.travel.europe covers "all aspects of travel in Europe", including "Iceland, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Malta, and Cyprus". The charter is at: ftp://ftp.isc.org/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/rec/rec.travel-reorg Israel and the "Middle East" are outside the group's mandate; please use rec.travel.asia instead. 2. Where should I post about rooms or services wanted or offered? If you have a room for rent or are looking for one, or if you're offering services to tourists, please post in rec.travel.marketplace, not in rec.travel.europe. See below for a list of Usenet groups related to travel. In general, any post that proposes a payment or an exchange should be posted in rec.travel.marketplace rather than rec.travel.europe. 3. What other newsgroups deal with travelling or with Europe? misc.transport.rail.europe Railroads & railways in all of Europe rec.gambling.misc All other gambling topics including travel rec.outdoors.rv-travel Discussions related to recreational vehicles rec.photo.technique.nature Wildlife, landscapes, travel tips etc. rec.scuba.locations Scuba travel, location questions rec.skiing.resorts.europe Skiing in Europe rec.travel.africa Travel on the African continent rec.travel.air Airline travel around the world rec.travel.asia Travel in Asia rec.travel.australia+nz Travel Information for Australia and NZ rec.travel.bed+breakfast A forum for bed and breakfast guests rec.travel.budget.backpack Backpack travel discussion group rec.travel.caribbean Travel to the islands of the Caribbean rec.travel.cruises Travel by cruise ship rec.travel.latin-america Travel in Central and South America rec.travel.marketplace Tickets and accomodations wanted/for sale rec.travel.misc Everything and anything about travel rec.travel.resorts.all-inclusive All-inclusive resorts rec.travel.usa-canada Travel in the United States and Canada soc.culture.europe All aspects of all-European society talk.politics.european-union The EU and political integration in Europe The group misc.transport.rail.europe tends to focus on technical aspects of railways and railway technology. Non-technical questions about travelling by train in Europe should be posted in rec.travel.europe rather than misc.transport.rail.europe. In addition, many groups in soc.culture.* deal with specific countries or cultures (soc.culture.albanian, soc.culture.austria, soc.culture.baltics, and so on). Please check the language policies of these groups before posting in them. All these groups are in the so-called "Big Eight" hierarchies and should therefore be carried by all Internet Service Providers (ISPs). 4. What is "Google"? Google, http://groups.google.com/, lets you search almost all Usenet posts since 1980. It can be an invaluable reference. Google is the successor to a similar service called "Deja News", and later called "Deja". To search posts that have appeared in rec.travel.europe, choose "Advanced Groups Search". Fill in one of the four options under "Find message" and enter "rec.travel.europe" under "Newsgroup"; you can also choose other options, such as "Message Dates", if you wish. Press "Google Search" to complete your request. To search all groups in the rec.travel.* hierarchy, enter "rec.travel.*" as the Newsgroup. To search all groups with "europe" in their name (including misc.transport.rail.europe, rec.arts.comics.european, rec.sport.basketball.europe, and so on), enter "*europe*" as the Newsgroup -- note the asterisks both before and after the word "europe". 5. How can I complain about "spam"? Send a copy of the message to the address "postmaster" at the poster's Internet Service Provider (ISP). For example, to complain about spam from a user at aol.com, write to . Be sure to include all the "headers". With most programs, you can simply type "h" to see the headers; with Outlook Express, try Ctrl-F3. For more information, see: Fight Spam on the Internet - http://spam.abuse.net/spam/ The Net Abuse FAQ - http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email (CAUCE) - http://www.cauce.org/ Travel planning and preparations ================================ 6. I'm going to Europe for the first time. Where should I go? A common mistake is to try to see too much on a short trip. "Major" cities such as Paris, Rome and London are easily worth an entire week, even on a first trip. Even "minor" cities are worth an overnight stay. You'll typically see more if you choose to explore one or two cities thoroughly rather than if you try to see the whole of Europe superficially. As a rough rule of thumb, don't try to visit more than one country for every week of your trip. 7. Should I go on my own or with a tour? Most of Europe is very easy for an independent traveller to visit. The newsgroup is full of experienced travellers who will be happy to offer guidance if you need it. For most experienced travellers, part of the enjoyment is planning and deciding where to go, finding places to stay and eat, being able to change their plans whenever they want to do so, and often travelling without knowing for certain what to expect next. A tour will relieve you of the responsibility of arranging your own accommodation, of deciding how much time to spend in one place, and up to a point will insulate you from language difficulties. But it will also insulate you from the pleasure of mixing with local people, and will make it difficult for you to make a spontaneous change of plans when you've just been really attracted by something you've seen. A tour might also be worth considering if you have a particular cultural, historical or sporting interest and want to base your trip around that. 8. What guidebooks are available? (Thanks to Jeri Dansky for helping with this section.) There isn't a single best guidebook: different books address different needs. Some are designed for budget travellers while some focus on the more affluent. Some provide lots of practical information, while others focus on the attractions. Some try to combine different types of information; some are more focused. Books within the same series may vary in quality, as they are often written by different people. However, here are some comments on the main guidebook series. Access Good guides for major cities. Helpful for self-guided walking tours. Organized by street and block, so you know what restaurants and stores are near the tourist sights. Good details on major sights and museums. Accommodations and restaurants are not intended for budget travellers. Baedeker's Good for sights, including finding little known points of interest. No information on hotels or restaurants. Blue Guides http://www.acblack.com/ Good for those who want detailed information on museums and on historical and archaeological sights. Sometimes considered dry reading. Bradt http://www.bradt-travelguides.com/ Not often mentioned; has been recommended for Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. Cadogan http://www.cadoganguides.com/ Very good for historical and cultural perspectives. Well written and opinionated. Greats Eats/Great Sleeps (formerly called Cheap Eats/Cheap Sleeps) http://www.greateatsandsleeps.com/ Not always cheap (by some people's standards), but good values, which explains the name change. Detailed and accurate. Dorling Kindersley (DK) Eyewitness Beautiful books. Good for figuring out what sights to see and also useful as a souvenir, but has rather little actual information. Includes neighbourhood maps and museum floor plans. Not the book for hotel recommendations. Heavy to travel with. Fodor's http://www.fodors.com/ General purpose, mainstream guidebook with information on sights, restaurants and hotels. Too upscale for some; certainly not for budget travellers. Some strong praise for the restaurant recommendations. The feature "If you have one day...", "If you have three days...", etc., is useful for travel planning. Not strong on historical background. Frommer's http://www.frommers.com/ All-around guidebook with information on major sights, restaurants, hotels. Some have been quite pleased with the hotel and restaurant recommendations. Not strong on historical background. Gault Millau Covers hotels and restaurants in France. Less reliable than Michelin Red Guide -- some say it's much less reliable -- but nicely written, and can be useful as a check to confirm restaurant recommendations listed in Michelin. Guide du routard For the back-pack and budget traveller; has a fresh and somewhat opinionated writing style. Very useful for budget lodgings. Insight Guides http://www.insightguides.com/ Good for getting the flavour of a place. Karen Brown http://www.karenbrown.com/ For those willing to spend more money. Some say they've found memorable lodgings through these books; others say they've found the descriptions misleading. Knopf Similar to DK Eyewitness (and apparently the inspiration for that series) in that both are beautiful, very visually focused books. Knopf has somewhat better background information. For reasonably affluent travellers. Knopf Citymap Guides Lists restaurants, cafes, shopping and sights, with some hotel suggestions and other miscellaneous information useful for tourists. Let's Go http://www.letsgo.com/ Student written guides for budget travellers. Considerable information on budget accommodation, restaurants, and public transport -- as well as things like laundromats. Good background information on history and culture, although not extensive. Lonely Planet http://www.lonelyplanet.com/ Notable for amount of information crammed into one book. Strong on the practical stuff: accommodation, restaurants, public transport, laundromats, bookstores with English language books. Lots of maps, but some find them too sketchy. Lacking in historical information. The colourful writing that marked this series is a thing of the past. Covers a range of prices; used to be focused on the budget traveller, but have moved somewhat upscale over time. Michelin Green http://www.viamichelin.com/ Detailed information on sites, with a star rating system (3 stars: worth a journey; 2 stars: worth a detour; 1 star: interesting) that many find useful in planning a trip. Michelin Red http://www.viamichelin.com/ Hotel and restaurant recommendations. Some find them too upscale. Others point to the non-starred but "good food at moderate prices" listings as a way of balancing price and quality. Rick Steves http://www.ricksteves.com/ People are very passionate about Rick Steves: they tend to really like him or really dislike him. These are not comprehensive guidebooks for the countries covered, but focus on Rick's perception of the highlights. Very opinionated. Seem largely intended to help inexperienced travellers, beyond their student years, who would like to try independent travel. Some object to the pace he recommends. Some have noted that hotels he recommends tend to be full -- with other people using his guidebooks. Rough Guides http://www.roughguides.com/ These guides usually get good marks for general background and historical and cultural perspective. A number of people note that they use them to decide where to go, but don't use them for hotel or restaurant recommendations. There have been vehement complaints about inaccuracies. A number of people find the books to have a condescending attitude which was quite annoying. Time Out http://www.timeout.com/ Well-regarded guides to specific cities, with useful information on restaurants, cafes, and other "hang-outs". Touring Club Italiano http://www.touringclub.it/ The hardcover regional red guides ("Guide rosse") cover the visual arts and architecture nearly exhaustively, and provide historical introductions with separate sections on the history of arts and crafts. Notable features of local cuisine are sometimes covered in some detail, but no recommendations for hotels or restaurants are given. There are also cheaper red guides ("Guide rosse economiche") and still cheaper green guides ("Guide verdi"). As the price goes down, the amount of detail decreases. The "Guida rapide" does have hotel and restaurant recommendations, but has little information on attractions. 9. Do I need a visa to visit ? Whether you need a visa or not depends on your nationality. The only reliable source of visa information is a consulate of the country you're planning to visit. You'll find a list of foreign consulate offices in the USA at: http://www.state.gov/s/cpr/rls/fco/ In other countries, your ministry of external affairs or foreign relations will be able to tell you the locations of consulate offices. There's a list of visa requirements for US citizens at: http://travel.state.gov/foreignentryreqs.html Please note that this list is for US citizens only. It's still a good idea to check with the consulate of the country you're visiting: these lists are sometimes out of date. 10. What's the European Union (EU)? The European Union, formerly known as the European Common Market or the European Economic Community (EEC), started as a "free trade" or "common market" agreement. Although trade and economic policy are still its major focus, it now also deals with social policy, external affairs, and other matters. The countries in the European Union are: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom. The following countries are expected to join in 2004: Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia. For travellers, the main effect of the EU is that border controls at airports and elsewhere often have two queues, one for citizens of EU countries and one for citizens of other countries. Choose the queue that's appropriate for you. For more information on the EU, see http://europa.eu.int/. 11. What's a "Schengen visa"? Some countries in the EU have agreed to unify their entry and visa requirements. In general, this means that once you're admitted to one of these countries, you can go to any other, and a visa granted by one of these countries (known as a "Schengen visa") allows you to enter any other country. The countries participating in this agreement are: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, and Sweden; Iceland and Norway also participate even though they're not in the EU. The following EU countries do not participate: Ireland, the United Kingdom, and the countries expected to join the EU in 2004 (see previous section). There are no border controls between the Schengen countries, so you won't have to show your passport or visa when going from one country to another. However, some countries require that you carry your passport or identity card with you at all times and show it to a police officer on request; these requirements remain in force. A consequence of this is that if you're allowed to remain in a Schengen country as a tourist for 90 days (for example), you can go to any other Schengen country during that period, but you can't be in *any* Schengen country once the period expires. You are also usually required to wait for a certain period of time (often 90 days) before re-entering the Schengen area. Please consult the consulate of the countries you're planning to visit to know the requirements that apply to you. If you're planning to visit more than one Schengen country and require a visa, you should apply to the country where you're planning to spend the most time. 12. What should I pack? The standard advice is to bring half as much clothes as you think you'll need, and twice as much money. If you think that you couldn't comfortably carry your suitcase or backpack for a few hundred metres or yards, you've almost certainly packed too much. The "Travelite FAQ", http://www.travelite.org/, gives suggestions on "travelling light", although it sometimes seems rather extreme. For example, although men might want to "trim their underarm hairs to about a half-inch in length", as the FAQ used to suggest, it's doubtful that this will result in a significant difference in the weight of the anti-perspirant you'll have to bring with you! In addition to what you'd usually bring on any trip, here are some things you might want to bring when travelling to a foreign country: - plug converter if bringing electric appliance - passport, and photocopy kept separately - plane and train tickets, and photocopy kept separately - train and hotel reservations - health insurance policy - vaccination certificate - international driver's licence, as well as your national licence - foreign cash - credit card, debit card, bank machine card - travellers' cheques - numbers to call if credit card or travellers' cheques are stolen - telephone company calling card There's also a "Universal Packing List" at http://www.henricson.se/mats/upl/. 13. What should I see during my trip? If you want to ask for advice about attractions, please say something about your interests. Are you looking for architecture, fine food, discos, night life, museums, landscapes? The more we know about your preferences, the more we can help you. 14. What should I bring my European friends as gifts? You might want to use Google to see what suggestions have been made in the past. A local specialty or delicacy might be appropriate. Anything widely available in your country is almost certainly widely available in Europe. The Canadian maintainer of this FAQ often brings maple syrup and other maple products as gifts. They can be hard to find in Europe and are rather expensive. Other users have suggested a good local wine or a local photo book. Money and financial matters =========================== 15. What currency should I use? Except for Turkey, always use the currency of the country you're visiting. Even if US dollars or another currency is accepted, you'll get a terrible exchange rate. In Turkey, US dollars are very widely accepted, especially for large purchases. Also, you'll get a much better rate of exchange if you obtain Turkish liras (whether by changing money or from a cash machine) in Turkey itself rather than in another country. As of 1 January 2002, a new currency, the euro, is used in the following countries: Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Portugal, and Spain. For more information, see the Euro Currency Changeover FAQ by Arwel Parry, http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/eurofaq.htm. 16. What's the "Interbank" exchange rate? The "Interbank" rate is the rate banks charge each other when trading large amounts. The rate you see listed in the newspapers is usually the Interbank rate. Unless you're changing very large amounts, the rate you'll get won't be as favourable as the Interbank rate, but you can still use it to determine whether the rate you're offered is reasonable. For "electronic" transactions involving a bank machine card or credit card, expect to pay about 1 % more than the Interbank rate. When changing traveller's cheques or cash, you'll usually have to pay 2 % to 3 % over the Interbank rate. Try to avoid paying any other fee or commission. Many newspapers list foreign exchange or "Forex" rates. You can also find them at http://www.oanda.com/ and http://www.economist.com/markets/currency/extable.cfm. 17. Will my bank machine card or credit card work in Europe? It is necessary to distinguish several different kinds of bank cards. Keep in mind that different countries have different banking cultures, and that different terms may be used in different countries. A card can fulfil more than one of the following functions: * Bank machine card (ATM card): With a bank machine card, you can go to a bank machine (ATM) and obtain cash. Examples: Plus, Cirrus, Interac, Maestro, Carte bleue, EC-Card. * Credit card: With a credit card, you can pay for purchases and you receive an invoice later. Examples: Visa, MasterCard/EuroCard, American Express, Discover. * Debit card: With a debit card, you can pay for purchases and the amount is immediately withdrawn from your account. Please note that these cards are used to pay for purchases, not to obtain cash from a machine. Examples: Maestro, Carte bleue, EC-Card, Electron, Delta, Switch, Solo. Debit cards are often *not* accepted in a foreign country. A card can fulfil more than one of these functions. The following networks are related and a card may accept more than one of them: - MasterCard/EuroCard, Cirrus, Maestro; - Visa, Plus, Electron. However, it's still important to note the differences between these functions. For more information, see http://international.visa.com/ps/products/credit/ http://international.visa.com/ps/products/debit/ http://www.mastercard.com/mcweb/findacard/index.jsp Any of these cards will generally get the best exchange rate. Many banks charge 1 % over the "Interbank" rate; ask your bank for details. Some banks also charge an additional flat fee each time you use your card; try to find a bank that doesn't charge such fees. In "Eastern European" countries, cards are usually accepted in major tourist destinations (Prague, Budapest, Warsaw, and so on), but may not be accepted in smaller cities or in countries with less tourism. Here are some specific comments about these three kinds of cards. * Bank machine cards: Plus, Cirrus and Maestro cards are widely accepted in Europe. Bank machines will offer you a choice of languages, including English. MasterCard/EuroCard/Cirrus/Maestro recommends that you use a 4-digit identification (PIN) code when travelling abroad; if your code is longer than this, you should change it to something shorter before leaving. Visa/Plus recommends that you use a 4-digit to 6-digit code. Also, European bank machines don't have letters on the numeric keypad; if you use the letters to remember your code, you'll have to learn the numbers instead. Some banks now add a surcharge to foreign transactions; check with your bank before leaving. In addition, the bank that owns the bank machine may also add a surcharge. Apparently, there must be a notice on the bank machine itself in Germany, but no notice is required in Hungary. If you get money using a bank machine card and are charged a fee by the machine's owner without a notice appearing on the machine itself, please write to me at so that I may prepare a list of bank machines to avoid. However, please make sure that the fee really was charged by the owner of the machine, not by your own bank. * Credit cards: Both Visa and MasterCard/EuroCard are widely accepted in Europe for purchases. American Express is much less useful, and Discover is not usually accepted in Europe. You can also get a cash advance using your credit card; in this case, your own bank will charge you interest starting on the day you received the funds and may also add a surcharge for foreign transactions. The bank giving you the money shouldn't ask for any additional commission or fee; if it does, go elsewhere, and again please write to me at so that I may prepare a list of banks to avoid. Some credit card companies become suspicious if the card suddenly starts being used in a different country or continent. Therefore, some users suggest letting your credit card company know that you'll be going abroad. * Debit cards: As stated previously, these cards often aren't accepted in foreign countries. For example, foreign debit cards aren't accepted in Germany and Denmark. However, a debit card might also be a bank machine card or credit card and can be used as such abroad. It's recommended that you bring both a bank machine card and a credit card (two different cards) and, if you wish, a debit card. Use the bank machine card to get money from bank machines and use the credit card or debit card to pay for purchases. If you're stuck, you can also use the credit card to get a cash advance, but you'll then have to pay interest. If you wish to be prudent, you can bring more than one card of each kind in case a card isn't accepted for some reason or you run into any problems. Of course, you should store the cards separately in case they're lost or stolen. (Usage varies considerably by country; I've tried hard to make this explanation as clear as possible both in Europe and elsewhere. If the text isn't clear to you or if you have any suggestions, please write to me.) 18. Should I use traveller's cheques? You'll usually get a worse exchange rate if you use traveller's cheques rather than any of the cards mentioned above. Still, some travellers like to have them as a backup in case they can't use their bank machine card or credit card. If you carry traveller's cheques, ask the issuing company for the addresses of its offices or of affiliated companies which will cash the cheques without charge. Some users of the newsgroup have expressed dissatisfaction with the way Thomas Cook handled reports of lost or stolen traveller's cheques and have recommended getting cheques from American Express or another company instead. You should get traveller's cheques in your own currency, to avoid having to pay for the exchange of any cheques left over. 19. Should I change money before I go or when I get there? It can be useful to obtain a small amount of the local currency (perhaps $ 20 to $ 50 per traveller) before you leave. Most airports now have cash machines, and it's doubtful whether any major airport doesn't have one, so you can withdraw more money once you arrive. The exception is Turkey, as mentioned above: you should try to change money in Turkey itself. 20. How do I change money at a bank or _bureau de change_? Foreign exchange establishments list a "buy" rate and a "sell" rate for various currencies. The rates are shown from the establishment's point of view: if you want to obtain the local currency, look at the "buy" rate for your own currency, since the establishment is "buying" your currency and giving you the local currency in exchange. The difference
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